5th line - depower and rolling up lines - challenges

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Postby kitekarl » Sun Jul 31, 2005 10:05 pm

Anonymous wrote:When you say relaunch do you mean reverse fly? (On its back?) I've added a 5th line to my Windwing Outrages just for the situation you describe, and haven't had the kite try to launch itself. However, if you don't keep enough tension on the 5th line it will start to reverse fly. Here's what I do:

1. Let the bar go and get the kite on its back.
2. Draw in the 5th to get to the bar, and then wrap the 5th up until you get to the upper stopper.
3. Now wrap all of the lines up. Usually, about half way through this the kite will begin "bucking" like it wants to relaunch and I take an extra loop of 5th in, this will settle it down. Depending on my kite line length this may happen twice.
4. I'm now pretty close to the kite, it's still on its back, and for the kast few yards I just pull in the 5th so I can grap the leading edge.

I should point out that I have a small "Y" at the top, not a single attachment point. I wonder if that could be the difference. I also admit that I have never been in a situation as over-powered as the one you describe. (I have a hunch it's the "Y" though.)


You've got it backwards. If you put too MUCH tension on the 5th line then it will fly upside down. Trick is to tune the 5th to take the brunt of the tension and retain slight tension with your other lines so that the leading edge will be perpindicular to the waters surface. This will give you the most acute angle into the wind and allow you to roll all lines on the bar when the 5th is released to stopper. If the wind is very strong, do this with the board on your feet between you and the kite to give you leverage. When you get to about 7 feet remaining of 5th between you and the kite, take a few wraps of the 5th line (on the bar end of the stopper) and wrap around the bar to retain your lines. Take the excess 5 or 6 feet (stopper side 5th line again) and tie it around your board handle or foot strap. This will allow you to forget about your board and deal with the kite while keeping it away from the kite and having to worry about popping the LE. Now follow your 5th to the kite. Lay in the canopy on top of your center strut. Grab your LE and work your way towards one tip while lying on the center strut. When you have 1 tip, work your hand down to the other and then you'll be in self rescue position, with bar, lines, and board in tow just behind you. 8)
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Postby Bullroarer Took » Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:42 am

kitekarl wrote:
Anonymous wrote:When you say relaunch do you mean reverse fly? (On its back?) I've added a 5th line to my Windwing Outrages just for the situation you describe, and haven't had the kite try to launch itself. However, if you don't keep enough tension on the 5th line it will start to reverse fly. Here's what I do:

1. Let the bar go and get the kite on its back.
2. Draw in the 5th to get to the bar, and then wrap the 5th up until you get to the upper stopper.
3. Now wrap all of the lines up. Usually, about half way through this the kite will begin "bucking" like it wants to relaunch and I take an extra loop of 5th in, this will settle it down. Depending on my kite line length this may happen twice.
4. I'm now pretty close to the kite, it's still on its back, and for the kast few yards I just pull in the 5th so I can grap the leading edge.

I should point out that I have a small "Y" at the top, not a single attachment point. I wonder if that could be the difference. I also admit that I have never been in a situation as over-powered as the one you describe. (I have a hunch it's the "Y" though.)


You've got it backwards. If you put too MUCH tension on the 5th line then it will fly upside down. Trick is to tune the 5th to take the brunt of the tension and retain slight tension with your other lines so that the leading edge will be perpindicular to the waters surface. This will give you the most acute angle into the wind and allow you to roll all lines on the bar when the 5th is released to stopper. If the wind is very strong, do this with the board on your feet between you and the kite to give you leverage. When you get to about 7 feet remaining of 5th between you and the kite, take a few wraps of the 5th line (on the bar end of the stopper) and wrap around the bar to retain your lines. Take the excess 5 or 6 feet (stopper side 5th line again) and tie it around your board handle or foot strap. This will allow you to forget about your board and deal with the kite while keeping it away from the kite and having to worry about popping the LE. Now follow your 5th to the kite. Lay in the canopy on top of your center strut. Grab your LE and work your way towards one tip while lying on the center strut. When you have 1 tip, work your hand down to the other and then you'll be in self rescue position, with bar, lines, and board in tow just behind you. 8)


Sorry, I thought I was logged in when I made that post. I looked back over what I wrote and I don't see what I have backwards. I agree that when you have too much tension in the 5th line - or too little in the front lines - the kite will reverse fly.
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self rescue with 5th line

Postby sflinux » Mon Aug 01, 2005 2:40 pm

Sylvia,
The 5th line system has some benefits to a 4 line lei kite, it just seems like the power pulling on a 5th line is less than what I've felt on my 4 lines when overpowered. For overpowered conditions, I would prefer a kite with near 100% depower like an arc that lies flat (or ww S.A.F.E., etc).
On a side note, I like to keep my existing traditional 4 line setup and use that as a leash. I have a 5th line on my bar that I can pull on for relaunches. I've found this is much better for the kite when going out in extreme conditions like surf and I like the redudency of having a backup leash.
After you crash your kite and you start pulling on the 5th line, when you pull too much you will find your kite start to hover upside down and actually fly in the air upside if you pull enough. I find this pull to be less than or equivalent to a pull on a 4 line kite (especially for big kites) I like to pull on my 5th line to a point just before the kite goes airborne (this is a good place for a stopper ball, usually about 12' from your bar). At any rate, you can wrap the 5th line off around your bar at this point and then wrap all 5 lines around the bar together to get to your kite. It's ok to reel in an airborne 5 line kite, but if you don't want to you just pulled in too much on your 5th line.
For overpowered conditions, I base what size kite I'll put up based on my experience of having to reel in (self rescue) a 5 line kite. When in doubt, use a smaller kite. If the small kite is underpowered, you can always use a good light wind board, makes all the difference.
As far as 5th line tension: being under tension has no negative effect in terms of flying. You'll just have to pull more for relaunches, and it won't have any benefits for gusty conditions.
When the 5th line is over taunt, your kite will constantly want to sink (meaning constant steering input needed). And the 5th line will absorb gusts keeping the kite more stable.
I like having multiple knots on my 5th line so I can pick the tension based on the conditions for that day.
Things to note with the 5th line: When overpowered (sheeted maxed, chicken loop all the way out) you can pull on the 5th line and the kite will spill additional wind (like a ww S.A.F.E. system). On my rig, pulling on the 5th line 6"- 1' makes this start to happen. If I pull 1' - 2', the kite will take a nose dive like a hindenburg which can be useful in certain situations.
Bear in mind, that a kite will have less pull when it's down on the water, than 25M up in the air. For obvious reasons, I highly recommend everyone practices their self rescues. It will ground you and help you know your limits.
-bric
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Postby kitekarl » Mon Aug 01, 2005 6:02 pm

Bullroarer Took wrote:
kitekarl wrote:
Anonymous wrote:When you say relaunch do you mean reverse fly? (On its back?) I've added a 5th line to my Windwing Outrages just for the situation you describe, and haven't had the kite try to launch itself. However, if you don't keep enough tension on the 5th line it will start to reverse fly. Here's what I do:

1. Let the bar go and get the kite on its back.
2. Draw in the 5th to get to the bar, and then wrap the 5th up until you get to the upper stopper.
3. Now wrap all of the lines up. Usually, about half way through this the kite will begin "bucking" like it wants to relaunch and I take an extra loop of 5th in, this will settle it down. Depending on my kite line length this may happen twice.
4. I'm now pretty close to the kite, it's still on its back, and for the kast few yards I just pull in the 5th so I can grap the leading edge.

I should point out that I have a small "Y" at the top, not a single attachment point. I wonder if that could be the difference. I also admit that I have never been in a situation as over-powered as the one you describe. (I have a hunch it's the "Y" though.)


You've got it backwards. If you put too MUCH tension on the 5th line then it will fly upside down. Trick is to tune the 5th to take the brunt of the tension and retain slight tension with your other lines so that the leading edge will be perpindicular to the waters surface. This will give you the most acute angle into the wind and allow you to roll all lines on the bar when the 5th is released to stopper. If the wind is very strong, do this with the board on your feet between you and the kite to give you leverage. When you get to about 7 feet remaining of 5th between you and the kite, take a few wraps of the 5th line (on the bar end of the stopper) and wrap around the bar to retain your lines. Take the excess 5 or 6 feet (stopper side 5th line again) and tie it around your board handle or foot strap. This will allow you to forget about your board and deal with the kite while keeping it away from the kite and having to worry about popping the LE. Now follow your 5th to the kite. Lay in the canopy on top of your center strut. Grab your LE and work your way towards one tip while lying on the center strut. When you have 1 tip, work your hand down to the other and then you'll be in self rescue position, with bar, lines, and board in tow just behind you. 8)


Sorry, I thought I was logged in when I made that post. I looked back over what I wrote and I don't see what I have backwards. I agree that when you have too much tension in the 5th line - or too little in the front lines - the kite will reverse fly.


However, if you don't keep enough tension on the 5th line it will start to reverse fly.

Flys upside down if you have too much tension on the 5th.
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Postby kitechick » Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:00 pm

Thanks all for your comments and sharing experiences.

Here is what I take for myself from this discussion:

1. It depends on the brand of kite, bar, 5th line system, what you do to get to your kite - if you have to. They all are a bit different. The Slingshot bar allows only to pull 15 foot or so 5th line out. That determines pretty much the use:

2. Me using the 2005 Slingshot bar - I will use the 5th line as a) safety where the leash is attached to (instead of the Willy shackle, mine is wearing out), and b) relaunch assist. Nothing else. But that's what I got it for anyways.

3. Should I need to depower and roll up the lines I will very likely use the backline safety instead of the 5th. Especially in stronger wind.
Good point that this is not a good idea to try with a bridle kite because it does not flatten out.

And yep - it is a good idea to land the kite safely before you get so overpowered that you can't anymore. But believe me - it is not always possible to be fast enough back. In Winterwind squalls for example. Or - as a beginner in springtime winds - when you do not have the "feel" for the wind and it's development. Or simply because 40 other kiters want to go in at the same time. I encountered all of those scenarios. Kiting enriches your life with exciting experiences :shock:

Cheers! - Sylvia
ps: for the ones who do not know the "Willy Shackle" = spinning shackle where the chicken loop hooks in. The kite leash ataches to the spinning shackle also. This way you can spin and have a leash and never get twists with the leash. Famous Willy once produced them.
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Postby Bullroarer Took » Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:01 am

kitekarl wrote:
Bullroarer Took wrote:
kitekarl wrote:
Anonymous wrote:When you say relaunch do you mean reverse fly? (On its back?) I've added a 5th line to my Windwing Outrages just for the situation you describe, and haven't had the kite try to launch itself. However, if you don't keep enough tension on the 5th line it will start to reverse fly. Here's what I do:

1. Let the bar go and get the kite on its back.
2. Draw in the 5th to get to the bar, and then wrap the 5th up until you get to the upper stopper.
3. Now wrap all of the lines up. Usually, about half way through this the kite will begin "bucking" like it wants to relaunch and I take an extra loop of 5th in, this will settle it down. Depending on my kite line length this may happen twice.
4. I'm now pretty close to the kite, it's still on its back, and for the kast few yards I just pull in the 5th so I can grap the leading edge.

I should point out that I have a small "Y" at the top, not a single attachment point. I wonder if that could be the difference. I also admit that I have never been in a situation as over-powered as the one you describe. (I have a hunch it's the "Y" though.)


You've got it backwards. If you put too MUCH tension on the 5th line then it will fly upside down. Trick is to tune the 5th to take the brunt of the tension and retain slight tension with your other lines so that the leading edge will be perpindicular to the waters surface. This will give you the most acute angle into the wind and allow you to roll all lines on the bar when the 5th is released to stopper. If the wind is very strong, do this with the board on your feet between you and the kite to give you leverage. When you get to about 7 feet remaining of 5th between you and the kite, take a few wraps of the 5th line (on the bar end of the stopper) and wrap around the bar to retain your lines. Take the excess 5 or 6 feet (stopper side 5th line again) and tie it around your board handle or foot strap. This will allow you to forget about your board and deal with the kite while keeping it away from the kite and having to worry about popping the LE. Now follow your 5th to the kite. Lay in the canopy on top of your center strut. Grab your LE and work your way towards one tip while lying on the center strut. When you have 1 tip, work your hand down to the other and then you'll be in self rescue position, with bar, lines, and board in tow just behind you. 8)


Sorry, I thought I was logged in when I made that post. I looked back over what I wrote and I don't see what I have backwards. I agree that when you have too much tension in the 5th line - or too little in the front lines - the kite will reverse fly.


However, if you don't keep enough tension on the 5th line it will start to reverse fly.

Flys upside down if you have too much tension on the 5th.


Funny how the eye sees what the mind meant and not what the fingers wrote. I don't know why I wrote it that way, because I know it's not that way. Let me try again...

If you keep too much tension on the 5th line relative to the other lines the kite will reverse fly.
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Postby five » Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:14 am

I like using the fifth line as an alternative de-power instead of the sheeting lines. The slingshot system is adjustable while riding, and it only takes one or two inches of adjustment to make a big difference. The kite doesn't yank as much in the gusts. It almost makes the sheeting system obsolete.
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