Risk of injury vs need to progress

[berrisbob]

After finding out what happened to Zeev yesterday (hang in there Z, better times and good karma are headed your way soon - guaranteed O:) ), I found myself thinking a lot last night and today about risk of injury vs the need/desire to progress in the sport.

I've just started riding unhooked in the last few weeks, and tried a handful of fishing poles over the weekend. The fishing poles are exhilerating, but are also a bit worrisome. The risk of injury seems substantial, and largely unmanageable. Nearly free-falling from 10 feet up, while going downwind at 20mph, just seems like inviting a trip to the hospital. (Don't respond to this post with tips on throwing fishing poles. I'm going to start a separate thread looking for tips on that).

And this risk of injury is by no means exclusive to fishing poles. It applies, to one degree or another, to pretty much any move a rider might try while progressing.

I'm sure there are other kiters out there also struggling with this dilemma. I'm just curious to find out what their thoughts are.

[mbzporvida]

Scott, After breaking my ankle last summer on the log at Sherman I find myself watching other people and hoping they are careful.Many people do some crazy things on and of the water that could hurt themselfs or others.After seeing the 3 kite tangle up at the beach on Sunday,and many other close calls,I think the trick progression is less of a worry then just getting off the beach to ride.Don't think about getting hurt doing the "fishing pole" unhooked tricks just watch out at the beach ,because sometime your the only one paying any attention to what is going on. Ride safe and SEND IT!

[bobbyboom]

I'm 32 and I fear this sport every time I go out on the water. But that is why I also love it. Every time I come back safely to my car I'm VERY thankful. I've had some brutal accidents and this is my first season.

All-in-all I think that's what drives us to do this crazy ass sport in the first place. Its the thrill of the ride plus the thrill of doing something crazy and maybe landing it. That feeling is better than sex, or at least equivalent to it. :shock:

-Bobby

[Hana]

I too spent not kiting maybe total of 1 month last year as I hurt my ribs. (Left, right, and left again) It was too painful experience than actual physical pain almost...I think that I wanted to try something new too hard and too quick. I still do try and crash, but unless you try, you are not progressing. I think it's just a matter of how much... I do crash and screw myself a lot but I still have fun, maybe because I am more careful than last year and am more getting used to the pain? I don't know but when I am not comfortable or feeling tired, then that's the time I have to stop or rest. I do have problem not being able to listen to my body sometimes but I think that is helping me to some degree. I also learned that visualizing what I am going to do on land would definitely help so your body is ready to do on the water. So having too much pain on my neck now, I think that's what I am going to do now.

[whitecap]

Hey Scott -

Got home for a night to pack up for the coast....your move was waaay clean...When you move some water like that, think of Ollie....who moves more water than anybody!

As far as injury...still a matter of chops, style, and balls....Karl, (or Carl?) was out this afternoon in lousy southerly pusling, crap wind, pulling a few very clean back loop fishing poles...and coming out safe on base.....I remember the same concerns back windsurfing trying to get the jones for a forward....but worring about getting spanked. You have to give it Zeev - he pushes it - ( I still want a pic with the cape.....)

funny thing....I also saw Carl pull a forward last year..what is it about the locals?.....oh yeah, I just went and reread your post....as far as where I am?? I'll admit it - I stay within limits....I have spent prime time on the IR previously, and I would rather be in the water...

bob

[Bulldog]

Yoko and anyone else who is hurting their ribs, you need to get an impact vest! Sure it's not going to save you from pain completely, but it sure helps. I haven't done any kiteloops yet, but I've been dropped on my back from ten feet up (it doesn't matter if you're hooked in if your kite is in free-fall) and I've never even been sore the next day.

And then we could talk about helmets...

[zgur]

Scott,

Interesting that you posted this, as I have been thinking about this for 48 hours now....you know, when you can't sleep you have time on your hands.....also discussed it with my family who would like to spend less time in ER/Hospital.....

My injury on Sunday was caused by going for it a bit too hard. I was nailing a few good progressions which I have not been able to get, and got a bit overconfident. I went into my railey/blind/surface pass move with a bit too much speed/attitude. Mother nature always gives you feedback, sometimes it's tough....when I hit the chop riding blind, my face was close to the board, and then got a lot closer. I'm lucky it did not hit my eye, or the bridge of my nose: the ER doctor who was a hockey player, said that I should be thanking my lucky stars.....my dentis was a lot less sympathetic....he does not work with many athletes...

In the future, I will keep pushing, just not so hard. I will expand my liimits, just a bit slower and not so POWERED. I've spent way more then my share of time on the IR - no mas! It's a balance each person has to find for themselves.

Get some, Z.

[KillaHz]

Scott,

Interesting that you posted this, as I have been thinking about this for 48 hours now....you know, when you can't sleep you have time on your hands.....also discussed it with my family who would like to spend less time in ER/Hospital.....

My injury on Sunday was caused by going for it a bit too hard. I was nailing a few good progressions which I have not been able to get, and got a bit overconfident. I went into my railey/blind/surface pass move with a bit too much speed/attitude. Mother nature always gives you feedback, sometimes it's tough....when I hit the chop riding blind, my face was close to the board, and then got a lot closer. I'm lucky it did not hit my eye, or the bridge of my nose: the ER doctor who was a hockey player, said that I should be thanking my lucky stars.....my dentis was a lot less sympathetic....he does not work with many athletes...

In the future, I will keep pushing, just not so hard. I will expand my liimits, just a bit slower and not so POWERED. I've spent way more then my share of time on the IR - no mas! It's a balance each person has to find for themselves.

Get some, Z.

Interestingly enough, I too was thinking of this exact dilema shortly before Scott posted this. Z's accident got me thinking. I know that I have suffered pretty severe and sometimes surgery-requireing accidents trying to progress in just about all of my sports over the years. I have broken 36 bones with the first one being my leg when I was 2 (tried to fly from a 4 ft. high table.) So at what age do we stop pushing the envelope...I say never!

The day I stop wrecking myself is the day I hang up my shoes. Yeah, I don't like being sidlined but I don't like stailness either. I get bored when I don't get worked. Kiteboarding is an easy sport. Pushing the envelope is what makes us all feel as though this sport pushes us to the edge.

Now what can we do to minimize injury? Well, I've noticewd that in every progression in this sport there is a huge difference in the learning curve when you go at it on your own vs. getting tips from someone who is already sticking your trick. For instance, Z - you gave me some specific tips about jibing the wave board and it made sense. One session at Sherman and I was actually enjoying jibing. On the freestyle side - I've been strugling with certain handle-passes for the last two seasons and just a couple days riding with and absorbing Doyle's knowledge, I now understand what it takes to initiate and complete these tricks safely.

Conclusion...I know there are times where reaching for one trick winds up inventing a new one but we should all be constantly seeking out knowledge from the people ahead of us. Sometimes it's not even a bad idea to get more instruction down the learning curve when you find yourself a little stuck on some moves. We all like throwing our moves in front of an audience so why not have someone watching your every move and giving you instant feedback on what to do to improve it.

Martial artists have belts to measure their levels of progression. They study for years. We to our learning to harness a power that could potentially be lethal to ourselves and others...why should we stop studying? The group learning dynamic can be an incredibly powerful thing. If you don't want to drop some dough on a progression lesson, try to hook up with some riders who are at the same level and working on similar tricks. I have watched pros all over the world and this is how most of them do it. There are only a select few who go out and train by themselves. This is true of most if not all sports. Get with a buddy, a training partner, a class...whatever it is...try to absorb from the people around you.

[fearlu]

Great topic for consideration Scott. I am constantly evaluating the risk/reward ratio (since I'm truly an aging athlete at 50) and have adopted some personal guidelines that work for me.

First, let me say that the worst injuries I've experienced have always been when making contact with terra firma. I've crashed a dirt bike HARD many times and have some joints that will never be the same. Broken ribs also make sleeping a big problem. I basically ride a kiteboard with one foot since my left ankle is toast (thanks Honda.)

Second, when I realized that riding my Ducati WAY over my head was the only way to really feel like I was progressing as a rider, I sold it. Good idea since terra firma is mild compared to speeding motorists.

My mountian bike riding is still part of the plan since the exercise component is more important to my long term health than other less aerobic activities. But, when I ride at Mammoth or Rockville or Downieville I wear full moto gear. Climbing and descending on Diablo fitness rides? Just a helmet.

Snowboarding in the steeps is still pretty risky but I'm not hucking anymore. The only badly broken bone I've had (sound of wood knocking) was jumping on hardpack at Kirkwood. Nice scars from the external fixator. Chicks dig those scars (NOT.) Wasn't even that fun that day. Why risk it?

I guess where I'm headed with this commentary is that I always want to live to ride another day. It's harsh to acknowledge that age, body weight, lack of skills or gonads will forever limit my athletic performance. I may just have to KNOW that there are certain tricks I will NEVER attempt or master. It's not fun to recognize these limits but perhaps it comes with age (diminishing testosterone?)

Here's the essence of the message: push the envelope, ride hard, know your limits and CONSTANTLY evaluate the risk/reward ratio. Can you pull the sickest air without getting injured? Kiteloop with abandon? Maybe yes, maybe no. What's important is that you have fun, feel fulfilled, and get home in one piece for your family's sake. (Oh, and be able to ride tomorrow!) I'm grateful my friend Z is taking a step back and want him around for years of future comaraderie.

Then again there's always Darren egging me on to throw the loop at the apex of the jump...

[berrisbob]

It's interesting to read what others are thinking about on this subject. I expected there would be a wide range of views. I also found the suggestions of how to minimize the risk of injury interesting. I did not even have that in mind when I posted, but there are some good ideas here. And this also made it occurr to me that avoiding the risk of injury applies not only to the rider throwing the move, but also to the other riders on the water nearby, the beach goers, fishermen, people chilling with their buds in the parking lot :shock: , etc. The only thing worse than injuring yourself is injuring someone else.

Curt- you are right that the most dangerous aspect seems to be launching and landing, especially at someplace like Sherman where the wind at the launch area is variable and unpredictable, and there are many obstacles downwind. The good news is that launching and landing incidents are almost completely preventable. It seems that every time there is a launching mishap at Sherman, the riders that witnessed it take a little extra care for a while while connecting lines and making sure the area is clear before launching, etc. But that extra care seems to wear off all too soon, and then it's back to normal. We all need to try to remain vigilant when it comes to safety on land (I'm as guilty as anyone on this).

Yoko- great point about listening to your body and knowing when it's too spent to pull off that new move you've been working on. When you get tired you get sloppy. And when you get sloppy, it's much easier to.. as you put it.. "screw yourself"

Bob- how do you "stay within your limits" when you try a new move like a kite loop? I mean, sure.. you don't try to throw a loop immediately following your very first dry-butt transition. But even when you're skilled enough to try a loop, it still seems - almost by definition - that's it's outside of your limits, at least a tiny bit.

Zeev- essentially the same question: how do you know when you're going for it too hard or when you're being overconfident?

Gabe- the first time I saw you throwing huge ass kite loops 2 years ago, I thought you must be crazy. I learned shortly after that, that you are indeed crazy :P . That crazy attitude has served you well (with an occasional hiccup) in your riding progression. You are always very fun to watch. But I don't think I am (or want to be) quite that crazy. Good point about getting some help from someone who's been there or by a professional instructor. It's something that I have also been considering for a while now. BTW.. did Mark pay you to say that?

Dave- lot's of good things to think about there. The age thing definitely works its way into the equation. BTW.. my apologies for throwing one of those fishing poles too close in front of you on Sunday. I thought the coast was clear.. but then suddenly there you were. On an unrelated note.. you still ride Rockville? I LOVE that place! We need to hit that place in the fall when the wind starts flaking out on us.