Comments/suggestions on 5th line solution?

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jjm
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Comments/suggestions on 5th line solution?

Post by jjm » Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:47 pm

I want to run a 5th line on my Naish V4, at the very least for relaunch and maybe to use as a safety.

I guess I'd terminate the 5th line above the trim strap, so don't need to worry about running a line through the bar, or having a thicker/bungee type line at this end like some setups I've seen.

The Naish bar I have has 27m lines. I've got a spare bar kicking around with 25m lines. I'm thinking about getting a 5th line bridle from best or wherever.

So my main question is should I try to get one that is suitable for a larger kite to make up the ~2 m difference, or should I shoot for more or less the right bridle length and make an extension at the stap end with leader line or something?

I'm not too concerned with being able to use the 5th setup with other kites, but ideally would like to be able to convert back to a 4 line setup without a ton of hassle.

I'm thinking it would be setup something like this (thanks dewey!):
http://www.cautionkites.com/downloads/2 ... h_Line.pdf

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Post by Bullroarer Took » Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:00 pm

I'm not sure I follow you but will try to help as it sounds similar to my homemade setup for my Outtrages. The first thing: is/are there already attachment points on the kite for a 5th line? (I'm not familiar with Naish kites.) If there is then you can simply make you own simple "bridle" out of spare line - or buy some for $10 at your local shop - and skip the trip to Best. Put a leader on this bridle so that it will work for your 25 m line and give it some extra so that you can tweak the lengths if you need to. After that you want to put a stopper somewhere on the 5th so that the kite lays nicely on its back when you have released the bar.

I'm going to include below a setup description posted on Kiteforum by "Scott" a while back that worked for me:

"You guys sure can make the simplest thing more difficult then it needs to be.

Spread your arms. That's a good distance to space the cls straps on the leading edge. Or half that, because it doesn't make any difference regardless of what size kite, but you probably won't be putting this on something less then 12m, because in enough wind for a 9m, you don't need it (although the depower would sure come in handy in landing).

Open the zipper/velcro and slide the leading edge over the bottom arm of your sewing machine. If your smart and/or chicken, I'd take the bladder out first. I did the Naish 14m with the bladder out and the 20m Cabrinha with it in, but you better make sure every minute that you're not sewing through it. Sew about 10" of webbing around the leading edge sleeve, with a loop near the middle and pretty near centered right on the front-most part of the leading edge to tie the bridal line to.

Use Q-line or a spare flying line to make a bridle between the two straps and put a nice pigtail in the middle. Don't ask how big the triangle formed needs to be; it doesn't matter either.

Then run a larks head off a Q-line/flying line to the bridle, but leave some extra for adjustments. You can always trim it back later. Now run it down to about 5 meters from the bar, tie into another line that is hand friendly (I use 3/16" soft leader line) and put a ball stopper at the knot. Bring the leader line down through somewhere in your trim strap where the line will slide but the ball won't go through. Add a ring if you need to.

Ok, now the 'tricky part'. Not a big deal. Go out some morning with NO WIND, blow up the kite, rig your lines and set the kite on the ground with the leading edge facing the bar, the tips up straight in the air, the bar slid up the cls line to the stopper ball, and the cls line tight.

Adjust the point where you tie the cls line to the bridle until the semi slack flying lines just hold the kite from blowing over backwards, but not too tight so they pull the tips toward the bar. You just want it to sit stable upside down. The wind is going to load this up a bit so you'll have to adjust it again in some breeze, so...

Go have breakfast and wait for the wind to pick up to about 6-10 mph, then go out, rerig and check how it behaves with a little dynamic loading. Just stake the end of the cls line (the bar end you will shackle, or whatever, off to your harness when it's your leash) Make sure the bar is slid all the way to the ball stopper. The flying lines will form a catenary curve from the ground up to the tips of the kite, and everything needs to be adjusted until they just hold the tips straight up.

In a little more wind, make sure that the kite doesn't float upside down off the ground; if it does, lengthen the bridal or the top flying line portion of the cls line to effectively pull the tips of the kite toward the bar, decreasing the angle of attack of the upside down kite with respect to the ground and making it stay on the ground just gently.

I put this system on my kites when I first saw the KCS patent in France and it is easily the coolest thing for a solo sailor you could come up with. Genius. After sewing the straps, it takes about 15 minutes to build the system and rig it. The best part is the safety it lends to launching and landing; it is so depowered you can swim upwind dragging the kite and lines. Or wind your lines when you get close (two line lengths please) to shore. I still use a helper if there are people around to launch, but landing I don't bother in case the wrong person grabs it (untrained). I don't sail with other kiters because there aren't any (I don't sail alone, just no kiters; I'm actively recruiting...).

Wipika is brilliant for snatching this up; they're going to be selling a lot of kites once sailors on the beach start seeing this one in action.

The original patent for the KCS system (KCS - Kite control system, Wipika's CLS system) had a double fairlead on the bar for the chicken loop on one side of the bar and the cls line on the other. I tried this for about a month, then moved it up to the trim adjustment strap for safety; it gets the pulled in line away from you in the water when you have to relaunch.

Also landing, I never throw the bar; just come in and drop back into the water, then start pulling the leash slightly. The angle of attack of the kite goes negative and just decends gently to the sand, where you can then let it go all the way to the cls leash. This puts it down soft as a feather, then kills the power.

Try it on your big kite, and don't get hung up on the extra line; you'll never notice it.

Scott"

Finally, my kite did not have any attachment points at all so I had the local sail repair shop add some.

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Post by Sander » Fri Jan 27, 2006 3:01 pm

JJM,
A friend guided me thru the 5th line and it was actually pretty easy.
The Caution directions are pretty good. Just tweak them if your rigging is different.
I use my bar with different kites and the only thing different on the kites is the 'leader' or 'arc' line, which is the line that you leave on the kite. The leader should be equal in length to the depth of the 'C' of your kite. Then when you walk your lines out, the rest of the 5th line will end where your normal 4 lines end.
Just make sure that the 5th line attachment point is sturdy, else it may fail when activated (happened to me). I subsequently sewed on a section of webbing to use as the attachment point and works fine.
My 5th line is great for light wind relaunches and for use as a kite leash. I am working on a homebrew solution for using it for fine power tuning and will post when I get the final product.
Good luck,
Sander

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Post by jjm » Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:51 pm

Guys, thanks for your help. The 2004 Naish kites supposedly have a pump leash attachment that is strong enough for a fifth line. I will be attaching the fifth line there rather than using a Wipika V CLS type bridle.

I'll have someone look it over in person before I try it.

Another question: I've currently got my two front lines attached to a single point at the trim strap, and my fifth line runs to a ball connected through a ring on the other side of the strap.

Any problems with this -- the front lines not being symmetrical (in location, length should be OK), and having a single leader line that could break and lose both front lines?

I'm currently reusing the leash/stopper ball from the standard Naish re-ride system, but trying to make an oh-shit handle from an old bar work.

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Post by dewey » Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:26 am

Really guys. Give me a break. Just run a line to the middle of your leading edge. Done
Don't make it complicated. If you have a ring at the top of your sheeting strap run your 5th through it with a SS ring as a stopper. Connect a 3m line to your pump strap on the leading edge and tie knots in it. Connect the two line, and adjust the length so there is not much slack in it. Connect your leash to the SS ring and your done. 10 min. tops.

Josh that 5th saved me from a long swim when my bar blew up on me. I was able to kite to the beach without my 2 front lines.
Dewey

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