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Postby Sander » Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:36 pm

And the Vegas are 5th lined?
How is the bar for tuning the 5th?
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Postby charlie » Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:55 pm

i am glad to disagree with zeev about the bows
and if you guys think it blows steady here in the bay
what bay are you kite n ?
i think you all like what you get used too, bows are a tool to use to kite with. come n off a c shape it might take 3 or 4 good long sesion to get the "feel" of the bow

idont want to get in a piss n contest with zeev but...that is one broad
stroke of an opinnin.
what i read there is you like your kite
and f@#$ the rest...?and panzerfaust
didnt you get tangled up in a gusty stuff this year?
would the depower of a bow helped...?
zeev you every fly a bow longer then a 20 mim..?

plant bull shit and harvest a funny smell....



5th line. like i can handle 4 of them....
WhY DO I nEEd a 5 th...line...?
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Postby OliverG » Tue Nov 08, 2005 7:04 pm

Well, I believe Zeev likes his kites and all, but to dismiss bow kites out of hand without any real experience to go on is indeed a broad statement. But you know, some people are skeptical about hybrid cars, new products in general, political change or whatever. At one time, I'm sure plenty of people thought parabolic skis were stupid and that kiteboards didn't benefit from concave bottoms. Bill Gates was once quoted saying that, "Nobody will never need more than 640k ram." in personal computers. I have 1.5GB in mine.

I would also add that most people here pay full retail or close to it (shop street price) for kites. Zeev doesn't, but rather a regional or team rider price which is typically a % above wholesale. The same applies to me, and like Zeev, I have chosen what kites I wanted to fly and haven't been solicited by any company to ride their kites in exchange for support. I'm just happy to have some support by the people who make the kites that I am truly happy and stoked to fly.

I made disclaimers and pointed out my situation before as I think it's only fair that everyone know it. I'm not picking on anyone at all, but think that everyone who pays anything other than full retail, which of course may be slightly less at your local shop than the normal MSRP but is normally considered "retail", should be clear about it. Politicians need to state where their support is coming from, and because of that we are better able to discern where there interest lies rather than basing it on only what they say. Toby on Kiteforum has had to deal with this problem repeatedly and I would just as soon avoid it by asking that anyone who's supported in any way say so. This will help make a better site for everyone.

Thanks!
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Last edited by OliverG on Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby North Tahoe » Tue Nov 08, 2005 8:05 pm

I just re-read Zeev's post and think his opinion is well articulated and has nothing to do with the price he paid for his kites. His post makes sense. The kites fit his needs well if not perfectly. I fly Caution kites and love them, but would not describe them as a kite for everyone. My wife flys the Vegas and sometimes passes it off to me when the wind picks up. The kite preforms as he described ..no suprises.
-JM
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Postby Big Al » Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:51 pm

You're right Ollie, I should let everyone know that I've recently joined the Slingshot international team. I've quit my day job and am off with Lenten, Vari and Co. to an undisclosed windy location to film the next big kite film called "White Men CAN Jump" which showcases the awesome boosting power of the Octane! LOL!!!!!! :supz:

In all seriousness, just want to clarify a few things, the Octane is not a high aspect kite. It's very mid aspect, maybe slightly mid-high but definitely not in the same category as the Naish Raven, WW Outrage, Best Nemesis, etc which are true high aspect kites.

Dave Civello (SS Rep) has a 12 & 16m Octane that you can demo. He also has the Turbo Diesel if you want to fly a BOW kite. You are welcome to try my 14M if you catch me at the beach. I'll be where ever it's windy this weekend so look for the guy with the blue, orange and red 14M Octane.
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Postby charlie » Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:59 pm

i must admit i do like the look of the octane
and if i have too have a fifth line let it be the one line setup ,adjust on the fly.


Bow vs. C kite: I like where bows are pushing the design side of the sport, but for our area - where we have such steady winds, if you are past the early intermediate range - I don't see the value of the bow kites. Plus, in my opinion, bows have a way to go before they are ready for prime time.

this is what got my flame up.
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Postby Mr. clear » Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:11 pm

A few clarifications for Ollies "Fair Disclosure" rules:
* I picked my kites prior to any arragement for a regional team rider deal. Rode as many as possible, and picked the one that best suited my style/needs. Then went about getting a good deal.
* I think that hybrids are the great new joke on all the tree hugging people of the world: what are they going to do w/all the batteries when they wear out? Do you know how much poison is in batteries? There is no free ride in nature as far as power is concerned.....did you know that termites, which are 1,000 times more heavy then all the people on the earth (yes, there are many more of them then us) produce tons of methane which contributes to warming of the atmosphere......don't get me started on politics without getting me a cold beer first ;-)

Hello Charlie - 5th line is key when you are trying unhooked moves and need to let go of the kite, especially if you want to keep riding vs. coming into the beach w/a rats nest..yes, I have spent more then 20 min on bows. No knocking them, they are just not for me. And dude, our winds in the bay are the STEADIEST - trust me. Go to other parts of the world: maui, gorge, tahoe, florida, etc.......out winds are hella steady.....I never said F&^% anything else.....i truly believe that people need to spend less time focusing on gear and more time riding and improving skills. I like to keep it simple, find what works for you and focus on having a really good time!!!! can you dig?

Sander - the vegas is 5th line compatible. You can also fly it in 4 line. I've flown it both ways and think the 5th line configuration is much better. The bar is great for fine tuning performance and trim - lot's of options.

Later, Z.
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Postby Pablito » Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:20 am

Z,
I will just point out that those termites have probably been on the planet since long before humans started producing excessive CO2. Humans (and cows, which also produce lots of gas) have a population growth curve that other species on earth don't have.

Also, car batteries are recycled when they are dead -- or at least, they are supposed to be. That's what core charges are for. When you go into the Kragen to get a new battery, if you don't bring an old one in, they charge you more. The old batteries get refurbished. Last time I checked, it was illegal to throw a car battery into a garbage can. The batteries in a hybrid are worth many $1000s of dollars; when they wear out you can bet that they are going to get refurbished, too.

And speaking of recycling and "retail price" -- Newer old kites get recycled by getting sold on Ikite to guys like me who can't afford new ones. If they are really old, though (2002?) they get thrown in the trash, because they are useless. Just think of all those old kites filling up landfills everywhere...
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Postby panzerfaust » Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:00 am

I didn't mean to stir anything up with the questions and I'm only asking for a general opinion. In the end I will decide what to get based on how I like it. I was hoping for opinions of other kites that I haven't considered that have similar characteristics to what 'I think' I want. I'm also not trying to discredit the bow since I haven't flown any. However, those who have are welcomed to their opinion.
My scepticism about the bow kites is that they are a new design and just like everything new, it tends to have it's rough edges. I'm an engineer and I can attest to the fact that it is extremely hard to get something right the first time. Second, with no aerodynamics experience at all, don't the bow kites closely resemble the likes of flysurfers which are very well known for it's slow turning speed compared to our beloved C shaped kites. Again, I'm completely talking out of my bottom here as I've never even flown a flysurfer. The only thing that I am convinced of at this moment is that I want something that is beefier than a Rage2 but not as Outrageous as an ... ahem ... well ... an outrage :).

So, in a nutshell, I welcome all opinions, even biased ones if only because in all bias there is some truth and I don't really think that Mr. Z was trying convince me to buy a Vegas. So far, the conversation opened my eyes up to the Octane which I haven't considered.
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Postby OliverG » Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:48 am

North Tahoe wrote:I just re-read Zeev's post and think his opinion is well articulated and has nothing to do with the price he paid for his kites. His post makes sense. The kites fit his needs well if not perfectly. I fly Caution kites and love them, but would not describe them as a kite for everyone. My wife flys the Vegas and sometimes passes it off to me when the wind picks up. The kite preforms as he described ..no suprises.
-JM


I'm not critiqueing his post at all for its content, I like what Zeev writes and value his participation on this forum. My point doesn't just apply to him either, I just think by providing such disclaimers, we can better keep it "real".
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