Rapture vs Rage 12

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Rapture vs Rage 12

Postby Mattdog » Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:28 pm

have tried my 12m Rapture 3 times in good wind. Most of my comparison here is to my previous 12m Best Nemesis. I would say I am an advanced intermediate kiting for 4 years. I live for huge jumps, but don't do tricks, and kite in waves and many conditions.

For me it needs a 55 cm bar (I bought the 50 cm CC too bad). Its not a really fast turning kite. I nalied the jumps with a 55cm bar. Upwind seems like any other kite, except in light wind, the kite seems to really grunt pull me downwind which Im not used to (maybe cause it sits back in the window). The kite is heavy (well built) but feels a little heavy on the bar pressure and sluggish in light wind. Traditional launching seems tough to do, I haven't tried the reverse relaunch yet since my kite has always fallen on its side so you cant use the reverse system there. I do like the sensitive power/depower AOA

All in all I'm not bowled over with the kite. The Best Nemesis was lighter on the bar and quicker turning with abuot the same low end (prob less high end) and easier to nail jumps.
It's harder to self launch and assist launch (for a slight girlfriend).

Should I perhaps exchange it for the 12 Rage II or the Outrage? I wonder if I'm just a tradtional kinda guy.

Any thoughts? Thank you.
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Postby exsailor » Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:01 pm

I got a Rap 12 about a month ago and figured I'd throw my thoughts in as well. Overall, I think it's a very different animal from traditional c-shaped kites, and ends up excelling in different ways as a result.

As a first note, the Rap 12 loves lots of wind. The first time I tried it was in the low end of it's range, and I found it just as you described: slow to turn and hanging back in the window making it hard to go upwind. The next time I tried it though, the wind had picked up a lot, and it became an entirely different kite. Very responsive turning and great upwind ability, made even better by being able to depower for gusts very easily.

If you generally kite in places with very consistent winds and are looking for purely jump height and tricks, this may not be the kite for you. If you kite in locations with strong, gusty winds, the Rap 12 makes it a far more enjoyable experience than normal kites. It also seems like the safest kite I've ever used.

As far as launching and relaunch, the rapture is very good but requires some modified technique. If you check the WW message board, there are a couple of posts on self-launching techniques that seem to work. Basic idea is rather than folding a wingtip, to fold your lines around some type of sandbag / weight placed on the wingtip. When the lines tension it pulls the weight off and the kite launches.

Reverse relaunch is actually one of my favorite parts of the rapture. The reverse relaunch is easy to do, and makes it much easier to relaunch, even in fairly light winds. It takes a little practice, but once you figure it out, it works really well.

In the end, I really like the rap 12, but for me it works best in the upper end of it's range. I almost think about it like a 10 or 11 that has a huge upper range, and good low-end to keep you going in the lulls. If you're normal conditions are towards the low end of a normal 12, you may appreciate the Rap 15 more.
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Postby OliverG » Wed Jul 06, 2005 5:13 pm

Mattdog,

Exsailor has it pretty much summed up. I would add that if you are looking for a powerful kite that's going to send you big, the Outrage is the one. However, that may conflict with your wave riding for which I'd recommend the Rage 2. But, do not despair, when the Rage 2's are powered up, they send you big also, just in a different way. The Rage 2's give you a more vertical lift and not quite as much hangtime as the Outrage, but still very respectable. The Rapture does like a lot of wind and will keep you kiting when others are getting overpowered on similiar sized kites. The Rapture jumping is a bit different also. I find the takeoff lift a bit softer, it doesn't pick you up quite as hard or quickly as the others. After takeoff, the Rapture can deliver good hangtime and a lofty, glider-like feel with dialed-in sheeting.

The Rapture is a different kite from what most people are used to though, and look for more of these types of kites that are breaking out of the traditional kite mold, to come from other manufacturers such as Cabrinha, Best and Naish. But remember, Windwing was the first.

Hope this helps. Whatever you choose, WW customer service will take care of you.
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Postby Pablito(guest) » Wed Jul 06, 2005 6:05 pm

I had just a few points to add, about the Rage II. I have a 14M R2, and I have also noticed a few things that are similar to what you mentioned about the Rapture: First, that in the low range, the kite tends to fly further back in the window and want to pull me downwind. This is frustrating for me since it's my largest kite, and thus the one I am most likely to use in light winds. Second, the bar pressure seems heavy to me, especially in lighter winds. I find myself yanking the bar hard to execute faster movement in these conditions. Sining the kite is a real workout.

On the other hand, in gusty, strong winds when the kite is lit up, it performs really well. And when it is powered, it gives you alot of boost without much effort.

But like others have said, in general it seems like Windwing kites were created to deal with heavy, gusty winds of the Gorge. Still, I wonder if they ever have much need for larger kites up there. I've read some really negative stuff about the Rage II 17m.

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Postby OliverG » Wed Jul 06, 2005 6:18 pm

Funny enough, despite the fact that they are quite high-aspect kites, the Outrages have exhibited pretty darn good low-end as well. I've been flying the Outrages most, with the smaller Rage 2's coming in second and will be flying the Rage 2's a bit more to exploit the design for some freestyle tricks.
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Postby gdorfman1 » Wed Jul 06, 2005 9:21 pm

the low end of my 12m rage seems okay, but i can't compare it precisely. i have flown the 17 twice. i thought it turned slow, but the biggest kite i ever used was a 12 so...

i would disregard the 17m comments on the WW forum--those people seem totally clueless. you have to get the line lengths right, otherwise it will be screwed up. i have found that the pigtail adjustments really matter for wind strength.

if things seem weird, fly it hardline--but get the line lengths right...
if you can't tell whether it is under sheeted or oversheeted then yes, you will probably not do very well.
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Postby dewey » Wed Jul 06, 2005 9:57 pm

I agree with Ollie. The Outrages are great kites. As far as bar pressure, with the cc bar there is no pressure. The bar holds the pressure. And I fly it in low friction. I love my 17m Outrage. I'm one of the first people on the water and the last to come in the change kites when the wind picks up. Everyone seems to have complaints. I have first run production everything and have yet to have a problem. I haven't changed anything on my bar and my kites are the shit!!! The serial # on my 12 is 00010. I bought it last year.
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Postby Bullroarer Took » Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:59 am

Dewey, I'd like your help. I took delivery of a 2004 OR 12m yesterday, and the rigging is a bit different than my '04 OR 14 that I've had since they first came out. You have mentioned that you have your kite rigged in hard-line mode and have shortened the back lines. Does your kite have the extrended front leader seen in this WW pic?

Image

Also, I would really appreciate your best guess as to how much you have shortened the back lines. I am asking on the WW site in order to get the 'official' setup, but user knowledge is always invaluable.
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Postby dewey » Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:10 am

Your going to love this kite. No mine didn't come with a extra long front leader. Mine has about a 4-5 inch leader. If yours is the same here's what you could do. Did it come with the bridles. If it did then add the bridle pig tails to the front pigtails. It'll give you about 3 extra inches. That should do it. Ollie moved his adjustments on his bar (under the foam. I would do both if I were you. That way you have some adjustment. Let me know if this works for you. If you ever get to the delta let me know and I'll ty to hook up with you.

Enjoy
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Postby OliverG » Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:17 am

I've dialed in my Outrages very simply without addiing any additional pigtails. This is for fixed, or hard-line setup. But, regardless, the rear lines should be shortened at the bar anyway.

At the bar, pull back the foam covers for your rear lines and set your rear lines in to the knots closest to the bar, which will bring them in one or two knots.

Then when rigging, connect your front lines the the last knot - the one farthest away from the LE. When flying the kites in fixed line mode, the extended pigtails with the three knots connects to the LE.

For me, this is dialed in sweet. With the bar all the way in and the sheeting line all the way out, the kite will oversheet just slightly which actually gives you a tad more power in lighter conditions.

In well-powered conditions, I'm at full power with the bar not quite all the way in, which i find is most comfortable for me.

Try to dial it in first using all the stock gear without adding any longer pigtails to the front.
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