Page 1 of 2

Is a Kite That Flags Out to Two Lines Dangerous?

PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:46 pm
by nick_80044
I have RRD kites and the RRD Global V3 bar. I've been in several sketchy situations recently with punching out and the kite not depowering.

Yesterday I went to the park so I could work on this in a more controlled way and explore the problem further. I flew my 9m kite, brought it to the edge of the wind window, and punched out. The kite just sat there at the edge of the window, canopy filled up, as if I were launching. In the process of trying to wrap my lines, the kite never "flagged"; it tumbled, wrapping itself in the lines, rose up into the air upside down, and eventually went into a death loop. This is similar behavior to what I had experienced on the water. I was able to secure the kite without further chaos, but this is obviously not acceptable.

My previous kite flagged out to one line and when I punched out, it truly released all power and turned into a piece of flopping cloth. So I think this is an issue with the two-line setup. Or maybe it's an RRD issue--I'm not really sure.

Have you been in similar situations, and have complete confidence that you can self-rescue without any of these issues? If so, how did you achieve this? Any thoughts on what I can do to remedy this (aside from getting different gear)? I've already spoken to the local RRD experts and they claim that the kite flags completely when you punch out and that they've heard no complaints about this.

Re: Is a Kite That Flags Out to Two Lines Dangerous?

PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:04 pm
by etxxz
is your safety leash on the suicide ring?

i had the same V3 bar, my vision kite flagged out pretty good in various occasions. I actually want to go back to the RRD bar to fly all my kites..

Did you buy the bar used? maybe the flag line snapped in the past and was never replaced so you only have the suicide ring..

Re: Is a Kite That Flags Out to Two Lines Dangerous?

PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:11 pm
by NCKite_Ryder
there is a lot of info on this topic if you search correctly. end of day the consensus is two line depower system is ok and should "depower"... imo its a cheap alternative to how its supposed to be designed.

Re: Is a Kite That Flags Out to Two Lines Dangerous?

PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:16 pm
by nick_80044
etxxz wrote:is your safety leash on the suicide ring?


No, it's on the metal ring coming out of the black tube which is supposedly the "right" one.

i had the same V3 bar, my vision kite flagged out pretty good in various occasions. I actually want to go back to the RRD bar to fly all my kites..


The tricky (and frustrating) thing is that a flopping, rolling, still-powered kite can land successfully if it happens to flop or roll into the right position. This, IMO, gives a false sense of security. I don't want to depend on luck in landing my kite--I need predictability.

Did you buy the bar used? maybe the flag line snapped in the past and was never replaced so you only have the suicide ring..


No, the bar was new and purchased this year.

Re: Is a Kite That Flags Out to Two Lines Dangerous?

PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:42 pm
by stompdit
"In the process of trying to wrap my lines" did you just punch out, then start wrapping all 4 lines around the bar? Or did you punch out, start wrapping one of the front lines around the bar, flagging the kite out on one line, then continuing to wrap all 4 lines?

Re: Is a Kite That Flags Out to Two Lines Dangerous?

PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:55 pm
by jwest21
Hi Nick, I'm currently using an F-One bar that came with my bandits and uses a similar setup of mini-5th line to flag onto both center lines.

I'm not certain, but I believe the mindset on kite companies using this approach, is that if you flag to one line and begin wrapping the other three, a sudden break in that single line will death spiral your kite, whereas two lines wrapped should maintain a stable self rescue even if one breaks.

That being said, I had a similar issue when self rescuing at the lower launch earlier this year. I punched out in the wind shadow and my kite refused to flag correctly onto its back. It did the "fly upside down" thing and a bit of looping before finally settling on its back. It never pulled me hard enough to loft me, but was beginning to seem like I'd end up climbing out on the rocks again. The issue most certainly is exacerbated by lighter winds and I've gotten many confirmations that this kite depowers perfect in high winds. One issue that may be your problem is if there's a stopper up the mini-5th that keeps the bar from going any further up the line. It should be a sufficient distance away to accommodate a particular size of kite and could be set for a smaller sized kite that requires a shorter length to flag out.

Re: Is a Kite That Flags Out to Two Lines Dangerous?

PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:42 pm
by Sonny
nick_80044 wrote:I have RRD kites and the RRD Global V3 bar. I've been in several sketchy situations recently with punching out and the kite not depowering.

Yesterday I went to the park so I could work on this in a more controlled way and explore the problem further. I flew my 9m kite, brought it to the edge of the wind window, and punched out. The kite just sat there at the edge of the window, canopy filled up, as if I were launching. In the process of trying to wrap my lines, the kite never "flagged"; it tumbled, wrapping itself in the lines, rose up into the air upside down, and eventually went into a death loop. This is similar behavior to what I had experienced on the water. I was able to secure the kite without further chaos, but this is obviously not acceptable.

My previous kite flagged out to one line and when I punched out, it truly released all power and turned into a piece of flopping cloth. So I think this is an issue with the two-line setup. Or maybe it's an RRD issue--I'm not really sure.

Have you been in similar situations, and have complete confidence that you can self-rescue without any of these issues? If so, how did you achieve this? Any thoughts on what I can do to remedy this (aside from getting different gear)? I've already spoken to the local RRD experts and they claim that the kite flags completely when you punch out and that they've heard no complaints about this.


I have been riding RRD since 2010 and never had any issues. Sometimes the wind is not strong enough to make the kite flag out, if you pull the leash really hard then it will flag out. I generally launch and land at the point at 3rd AVE during low tides and I always unhook and let my bar go, which depowers the kite.

Re: Is a Kite That Flags Out to Two Lines Dangerous?

PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:30 pm
by yojimbo
This sounds almost exactly like the leash is set up. "Suicide" style. When you punch out, only your two front lines are loaded and your bar travels away from you releasing any load on the rear lines for a 4 line kite. This will cause your kite to gently fall from the sky and land and remain relatively depowered.

If this is not happening, as in your case, the rear lines are still carrying load, something is keeping the bar from traveling away from you and towards the kite. Your kite is then still powered up, and behaving in the manner you are describing.

Maybe if you posted a pic of how you are attaching your leash, someone who has the same set -up could verify that it is being done correctly.

Re: Is a Kite That Flags Out to Two Lines Dangerous?

PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:35 pm
by jwest21
Oh, just a random suggestion in case your kite has pulleys on the bridals... check to verify that they are moving freely and there aren't any snags along the bridal lines. Seems like many of the two-line flagging kites have pulleys that need to find their way toward the leading edge to flag correctly. Modern kite progression has lead toward lighter bar pressure and incidentally more pull directed toward the center lines, those lines pull from an area closer toward midway between the pump leash and the wing tips, but need to travel toward the pump leash to correctly flag.

Re: Is a Kite That Flags Out to Two Lines Dangerous?

PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:12 pm
by Sonny
nick_80044 wrote:
etxxz wrote:is your safety leash on the suicide ring?


No, it's on the metal ring coming out of the black tube which is supposedly the "right" one.

i had the same V3 bar, my vision kite flagged out pretty good in various occasions. I actually want to go back to the RRD bar to fly all my kites..


The tricky (and frustrating) thing is that a flopping, rolling, still-powered kite can land successfully if it happens to flop or roll into the right position. This, IMO, gives a false sense of security. I don't want to depend on luck in landing my kite--I need predictability.

Did you buy the bar used? maybe the flag line snapped in the past and was never replaced so you only have the suicide ring..


No, the bar was new and purchased this year.


There are two rings, one with a black ball and one with red ball. Black ball is suicide, you want to attach to the ring with the red ball.